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On to the Scholly question

  • Touched on a bit already, but deserves a full thread. I think the now likely reality that IU will sign 5 in 2013, that we are more likely to see an underclassman transfer than prep school for a current senior. A transfer would free up a scholly for both years.

    So a transfer would get us to 13 this year and 14 next (again, assuming 5). A departure from Cody would take care of that, or a 2012 transfer. If nobody transfers, than somebody will have to wait until spring to sign, which is not an ideal situation.

    I understand these things work themselves out, but it is getting close to crunch time here. What are your thoughts?

    mmarsden

  • mmarsden said...

    Touched on a bit already, but deserves a full thread. I think the now likely reality that IU will sign 5 in 2013, that we are more likely to see an underclassman transfer than prep school for a current senior. A transfer would free up a scholly for both years.

    So a transfer would get us to 13 this year and 14 next (again, assuming 5). A departure from Cody would take care of that, or a 2012 transfer. If nobody transfers, than somebody will have to wait until spring to sign, which is not an ideal situation.

    I understand these things work themselves out, but it is getting close to crunch time here. What are your thoughts?

    OK, here's what it is. I re-ran all of this in my head this morning, to get a better handle on it. I can't promise you that helped, but anyway.

    Here's a look at the situation right now:

    2012-13 season

    Seniors

    Jordan Hulls
    Derek Elston
    Christian Watford

    Juniors

    Maurice Creek (assuming fifth year)
    Victor Oladipo
    Will Sheehey

    Sophomores

    Remy Abell
    Austin Etherington
    Cody Zeller

    Freshmen

    Yogi Ferrell
    Jeremy Hollowell
    Peter Jurkin
    Hanner Mosquera-Perea
    Ron Patterson

    Situation: Right now, Indiana has 14 players on roster for next season, this much we all by now surely know.

    This isn't a piece on what's going to solve the scholarship situation, rather simply a window into it. Indiana will need to remove one of those 14 players from scholarship, somehow, by the start of the fall semester.

    Looking to 2013-14, Indiana, then, will have an oversign limit of FOUR, because three seniors will be coming off scholarship. There are two things that could change that number:

    *It has always (ALWAYS) seemed unlikely, at least to me, but if one of the current seniors pays his own way for his final season, then technically, you're only bringing two players off scholarship after this year, and the oversign number drops to three.

    *If Maurice Creek were to, for some reason, decide to graduate with his original recruiting class after next season and not take a fifth year, then there would be four players coming off the books, and the oversign number would rise to five.

    So right now, this is what the 2013-14 situation looks like:

    2013-14

    Seniors

    Maurice Creek
    Victor Oladipo
    Will Sheehey

    Juniors

    Remy Abell
    Austin Etherington
    Cody Zeller

    Sophomores

    Yogi Ferrell
    Jeremy Hollowell
    Peter Jurkin
    Hanner Mosquera-Perea
    Ron Patterson

    Freshmen

    Devin Davis
    Luke Fischer
    Collin Hartman
    Stanford Robinson

    Now, there are a few important unknowns to point out in the '13-'14 roster:

    *First, there are a number of players on that list who might opt to leave after the 2012-13 season, Zeller chiefly among them. Oladipo, given his athletic potential and progression in the last two seasons, might be another candidate in that regard, and so too might one or more of the five players in the 2012 class, depending upon how they develop.

    The key to this supposition (and I cannot stress this enough) is that none of these players is GUARANTEED to come off scholarship after the season ends, which means Indiana cannot sign over them. The oversign number is always the total number of seniors on the team, plus one. So for next season, the trio of Hulls-Elston-Watford makes up that baseline number, and Indiana's oversign number is a flat four.

    That means Indiana can commit all the players it wants, but it's only allowed to take four letters of intent in November. Any other players who wanted to join the team would have to wait until April (which is, I would think for obvious reasons, very hard to convince a recruit to do).

    *For the 2013-14 roster, you have to assume one of the above-listed players won't be there, purely based on the need to solve this year's scholarship crunch (Unless the solution is for someone to pay their own way). Again, this isn't looking at who might leave, or why. We just simply have to point out that that group, which is right now swelled to 15 players, will be at 14 by the time this maneuvering has to be done, to fit the 2012 class in first, before it's even time to figure out 2013.

    The big keys to take away from this are:

    *Right now, Indiana is at its oversign limit in 2013, with three seniors expected to come off scholarship and the program thereby allowed to sign four players this November.

    *The only way that number changes is if either a) one of those seniors voluntarily comes off scholarship ahead of this season, presumably by paying their own way to make room for all five 2012 signees, or b) if Maurice Creek comes off scholarship NOT this summer, but NEXT summer, as though he were graduating at his regular pace and not with a fifth year tacked on. The second scenario would create four openings next summer, and give Indiana an oversign limit of five.

    (It's important to note that Creek would, I think, basically have to announce he wasn't coming back, although Matt Roth didn't have to. I'm honestly not sure how that would work. My guess is the oversign number stays pegged at four, unless Indiana loses two scholarship players this summer somehow.)

    I know this is all complicated as can be. It's a remarkably fluid discussion to try and have in any tangible way. Just know that the highlights are that Indiana still needs someone off scholarship by August of this year, and it likely has a full oversign limit of four going into the November period.

    What that means for a player like Beejay Anya honestly isn't clear, but it's something we'll keep you updated on throughout the summer.

    Oh, and one last thing, for those curious: Assuming Creek stays a fifth year and Oladipo a fourth (and perhaps even Sheehey a fourth — he might have some pro potential), Indiana's oversign limit in 2014 is also four, with a total of three scholarships guaranteed to open up as things stand right now (an immensely important phrase in all this). Right now, IU has two commitments in 2014, Trey Lyles and James Blackmon Jr.

    Zach Osterman // IU Athletics beat reporter // Follow me on Twitter at www.twitter.com/ZachOsterman

    Zach Osterman

  • Does the ability to pay one's own way and come off scholarship change if u have a degree? I thought that if u started in scholly that the NCAA closed the loophole on moving from Scholly to walk in this situation.

    Unless the thinking is that by graduating that some of these players could transfer and play right away since they have in fact graduated????

    Thanks for trying to make sense of It. I think that Vic, Cody and Christian might all enter the draft next year!

    IU77BU81IUx0

  • IU77BU81 said...

    Does the ability to pay one's own way and come off scholarship change if u have a degree? I thought that if u started in scholly that the NCAA closed the loophole on moving from Scholly to walk in this situation.

    Unless the thinking is that by graduating that some of these players could transfer and play right away since they have in fact graduated????

    Thanks for trying to make sense of It. I think that Vic, Cody and Christian might all enter the draft next year!

    To your first question: Not that I know of. I don't think there's anything saying a player can't voluntarily give up his scholarship and pay his own way, but I'll check on that.

    To the second: You raise a good point, in that that would seem to be counterintuitive to the grad transfer rule.

    I think you're right on the draft entrants, all three of them. Obviously Watford wouldn't make a difference, since he's already off the books, but I think you're right on Vic and Cody. Which would mean Indiana would need to go find one more player to fill a scholarship next spring. It's all so fluid.

    Zach Osterman // IU Athletics beat reporter // Follow me on Twitter at www.twitter.com/ZachOsterman

    Zach Osterman

  • Zach Osterman said...

    To your first question: Not that I know of. I don't think there's anything saying a player can't voluntarily give up his scholarship and pay his own way, but I'll check on that.

    To the second: You raise a good point, in that that would seem to be counterintuitive to the grad transfer rule.

    I think you're right on the draft entrants, all three of them. Obviously Watford wouldn't make a difference, since he's already off the books, but I think you're right on Vic and Cody. Which would mean Indiana would need to go find one more player to fill a scholarship next spring. It's all so fluid.

    And so I did some checking, with a trusted source who knows compliance.

    *There is nothing against a player voluntarily leaving his scholarship to pay his own way, so long as it's done between academic years (presumably to avoid any snafus or entanglements with halving scholarships).

    *The issue, though, is that any athlete who did that would almost certainly not be able to accept any academic aid from the school after leaving his scholarship. He could get federal aid (which I assume would include loans), but he can't get academic awards from the school to help pay for his tuition and such, not even for grad school. There is an exception to this, but it's a small, specific one that's not easy to trigger.

    Hope this helps clear some things up.

    Zach Osterman // IU Athletics beat reporter // Follow me on Twitter at www.twitter.com/ZachOsterman

    Zach Osterman

  • So to take this a step further, could someone give up a scholly, walk on with no financial aid and then go back on scholly later in the career? Maybe this would be a way to keep people in the fold who could play a bigger role eventually- does make u wonder if we have a non qualifier this year- 2012???

    IU77BU81IUx0

  • IU77BU81 said...

    So to take this a step further, could someone give up a scholly, walk on with no financial aid and then go back on scholly later in the career? Maybe this would be a way to keep people in the fold who could play a bigger role eventually- does make u wonder if we have a non qualifier this year- 2012???

    I honestly don't know about that. I think that would be a little bit too contrived of a scenario for anyone's comfort, honestly, even if it were legal. Too many factors and probably from a player's point of view, too much hanging in the wind.

    Zach Osterman // IU Athletics beat reporter // Follow me on Twitter at www.twitter.com/ZachOsterman

    Zach Osterman

  • And I thought figuring out how to get this year's signing class on campus was complicated. Rest assured, there is a scenario Tom Crean is working under that will reveal itself in the coming weeks to clear up the oversign snafu for this season's class. Then he'll address the next recruiting class when that time comes. The only problem I can foresee is Anya going the way of Gary Harris. I'm not saying that Harris wouldn't have selected MSU regardless of IU's scholarship situation, but with no grants clearly available, I would imagine it makes Bloomington less appealing - especially for a top recruit like Anya or Harris who has his choice of schools.

    Ed Magoni // Publisher of Inside Indiana Magazine // Follow me on Twitter at www.twitter.com/EMagoni

    Ed Magoni

  • Thanks Ed, you make a great point. Since everyone else committed to the Hoosiers so fast and furiously- I agree that this likely contributed to Gary Harris going to one of his other great options!

    Could Anya be moved to do likewise since IU is in exactly the same situation! At oversign limit!

    IU77BU81IUx0